United States

There was a time when I was younger and forming or joining a good, committed band was a dime a dozen in New York. Flash forward thirty years later, it's a loosing battle.

First of all, trying to set a "play date" with a few fellow musicials in their 40's and 50's is like requesting the Queen of England to smile on TV. My bad, Queen. Second, getting some committent to practice the material before practice is even worsts. "Well, I had other things I had to do" are some of the BS I've heared. Third, the costs of musical instruments, practice space and gas makes the whole ideal a waste of time, energy and money. Fourth, to add to the insults, the average gig pays what, peanuts. The costs of damaging my gear outweighs the $200-$300 pay any day.

Like most of you I've spend plenty of money for the love of music. And personally, I can live with the fact that I'll never earn the amount of money invested back. I'm ok with that.

But, I wish there was a code of honor for musicials that would simply require one thing: Piss or Get Off the Pot!

Jazz

Consider me Pissed and Off the Pot.

Too many peed on my pot, so I just sit at home and jam, record, and make youtube videos.

Tired of dealing with people who don't care, or dealing with people that think because you are a musician you have to be the decay of society.

The problem I've run into is too many uncommitted amateur musicians who really don't have the motivation to succeed in a music career. I'm not in this for fun, to "impress girls" or "get laid". I'm in this to replace my day job with my music career full time and unfortunately, musicians who either already have good paying day jobs (and aren't motivated to work toward any other occupation) as well as clueless amateurs who aren't willing to learn the songs presented to them, have been a stumbling block. This is why I'm a solo act now. I can write and record songs all day at pro quality by myself with my personal studio, guitar, bass and drum machine, so other musicians aren't necessary for me to write my songs and express myself. I just need a singer to sing the lyrics and can hire a hired gun bassist and drummer for live shows. The hired guns can always be replaced, if necessary with more cooperative musicians. I prefer it that way because the only two people I could write with comfortably are in other bands and writing with people who aren't on the same page with my musical direction, just doesn't work for me. I'm done with trying to form a band with other people and entertain a "democratic process", when I OWN THE NAME OF MY BAND (DARK BLU) and can fire everyone and start over again if they aren't getting the job done. I had to do that in my previous band and I've had a couple rounds of "cleaning house" in DARK BLU before transitioning it from a band to a solo project. Dave Mustaine, Zakk Wylde, and others manage to find professional musicians to join them and form bands because they aren't dealing with amateurs who aren't trying to get the job done and become rock stars. That's my goal. Anyone who isn't trying to fill there role in my project and become a rock star is useless to me. I'm not a follower and no one is going to join my band and usurp control of it. Everyone has a specific role. Play your instrument to the best of your ability, learn the songs I give you, and play them right, not changing parts because you aren't capable of playing what I wrote. I've been through a couple of rounds of that and I have no patience for it. You don't join someone's band and when given songs to learn, NOT learn them and then start changing sh*t because you can't play the sh*t I wrote. Any musician who can't get the job done is useless to me. I'm trying to create something great here, not something half ass, so half ass musicians don't cut it and unfortunately, there are too many half ass musicians out there who have no business sense, no sense of responsibility, half ass skills on their instrument, and no level of commitment.

I refuse to stop working toward my goals and objectives just because there are too many amateurs out there getting in the way. I'll just have to weed through them to find the pros who are hungry, want out of their day jobs, and want to be rock stars. I've got the tunes, the business plan, and the will to make it happen. Finding talented, committed pros who can get the job done is tough but not impossible. Just have to find them.

There was a time when I was younger and forming or joining a good, committed band was a dime a dozen in New York. Flash forward thirty years later, it's a loosing battle.

First of all, trying to set a "play date" with a few fellow musicials in their 40's and 50's is like requesting the Queen of England to smile on TV. My bad, Queen. Second, getting some committent to practice the material before practice is even worsts. "Well, I had other things I had to do" are some of the BS I've heared. Third, the costs of musical instruments, practice space and gas makes the whole ideal a waste of time, energy and money. Fourth, to add to the insults, the average gig pays what, peanuts. The costs of damaging my gear outweighs the $200-$300 pay any day.

Like most of you I've spend plenty of money for the love of music. And personally, I can live with the fact that I'll never earn the amount of money invested back. I'm ok with that.

But, I wish there was a code of honor for musicials that would simply require one thing: Piss or Get Off the Pot!

Jazz

I have a saying: The trouble with individulism is that everybody is practicing it...

Keeping that in mind... I feel your dilemma... Basically, what you have to fight everyday...are musicians, who behave as legends in their own minds. They show up to the studio or session, and its "always about themselves". There is a mislead assumption that the rest of the band actually hangs on anything being said. And of course, the rest of the band is all about themselves too... So what you have then, is a pile of sh*t, with people wasting each other's time.

I'm pretty sure that if you're 40 + in this business, your chances of landing the optimal members for your band are pretty much el zippo, Nada (Not saying its impossible, but am saying its highly improbable.) To be fair, most 40 + year old...if they aren't doing it for a living already, and if they haven't built a reputation locally or globally already, well, it probably ain't gonna happen for em...period.

The 40-50 year olds are already jaded anyhow... Try telling anybody on these boards that they "have" to do things in ways other than their own ways...Ha ha ha!

Now, You get some guys here, who actually can do both a day job and Gig by nights AND successfully raise and support families... So guess whut dude, those particular guys run circles around the dictum of "Piss or get off the pot". I would never begrudge such individuals. In my book, they get a pass, carte-blanche, no explanation required for not showing up in a mid week practice.

On the other hand, because such individuals are stellar in handling their own life's affairs, its kind of expected that their judgement and planning are a bit more sophisticated.
If a 50 year old tells you.. "I can't leave town next month" We can believe that he really can't! But what chaps my hide, are these stoners at 50 (...absolute f**k losers) who could not exercise responsibility out of a wet paper bag. Those are the guys you need to avoid like the plague... Guys like that cant make the gig cause "Their hair is all wrong" or something.

You guys are killing me. There are countless succesful bands, some local, some regional, touring, etc. They have to be doing something right. I had a constructive argument with Paper Dog on a previous thread. I'm a pro bassist/lead singer/songwriter. I don't thrive in an environment where one person dictates everything. I think you guys might get a pleasant surprise by trying to invite creative professionals to COLLABORATE on songs instead of dictating everything. Creating a "jail cell" around each tune, one way (yours) to do everything might be keeping really good musicians (like me) from responding to your search inquiries. You also might be surprised that bass players can write some pretty damn good songs. Paul McCartney, Sting, John Deacon (Queen) weren't too bad at it.

You guys are killing me. There are countless succesful bands, some local, some regional, touring, etc. They have to be doing something right. I had a constructive argument with Paper Dog on a previous thread. I'm a pro bassist/lead singer/songwriter. I don't thrive in an environment where one person dictates everything. I think you guys might get a pleasant surprise by trying to invite creative professionals to COLLABORATE on songs instead of dictating everything. Creating a "jail cell" around each tune, one way (yours) to do everything might be keeping really good musicians (like me) from responding to your search inquiries. You also might be surprised that bass players can write some pretty damn good songs. Paul McCartney, Sting, John Deacon (Queen) weren't too bad at it.

Here we go again! Bob Bob Bob !!!!!
I don't know where you get this idea of a 'jail cell' description of attitude. Maybe it's in my prose, which throws off the meanings here... (Although, they say that readers bring their own baggage to each page)

RE SUCCESSFUL BANDS... To me "Successful" bands is a broad and subjective concept. Actually, (and this is me speaking for me) ... If I can't make chart, then I aint sh*t...Its that simple. I will agree with you that there are a million working, thriving bands... who successfully maintain their status-quo. But in my perspective, they aren't all over the air and on the charts. Thus they are not "successful" (according my definition of success.)

I am under the distinct impression that you would like to see me handle a band like a democracy, or a Utopian realm of equality for everyone ... You define this as a successful approach. I do not.. Here is why:

The Utopian realm of equality in a band, from a business perspective, is suicide for that band's potential successes on so many levels. The key word here is "Business". In business of production, who has time to debate and quibble or stroke egos...or walk tight wires. Anybody packing and walking out is just another way of saying they don't have what it takes to be successful in the business as it unfolds at that level. If you do not believe me, consider the extraordinary work of Eric Clapton, who took charge of the Royal Albert Hall, the Engineers, and a hundred + Musicians, Plus an Indian Symphony, plus the public relations and directed, coordinated the Benefit Concert For Harrison...WHILE UNDER CONTRACT with his own responsibilities to his own label. You see this man pull it off without hitch and ya have ask yourself..."Now WTF was i crying about a minute ago??... Turn the volume down?..as in... its not an attack on me as a person? oh Ok, sure!"

Do you honestly think that Paul McCartney cares what his guitarist 'wants' to do on Paul's Album. Do a Google on Rusty Anderson (Who, by the way, rocks!) and tell me how many songs of his made it to "Chaos and Creation in The Backyard". That last time I heard Sting rattle off a new song, I seem to recall the station DJ saying that " Sting wrote a new song". There was nothing in there about Sting's guitarist writing a new song. Tom Petty was notorious for being an asshole about Practices. He was so adamant about work structure that it got the attention of George Harrison, who invited him into the Traveling Wilburys (and Petty's band eventually got to play ball with that, too.). I don't guess you ever heard John Lennon tear up and rage on Phil Spector , have you? I mean , lennon was always vitriolic, calling some body a 'stupid cunt' when they made silly mistakes... Pete Townsend and Roger Daltry were always at odds with each other...it got physical at times...

My whole point here is that 'the big boys' aren't about Utopian realm of equality... They appeared to be more interested in the actual work they did, rather than how it "Looks like to work."

Shakespear said "The Play is the thing"

I'm borrowing that and I'm saying "The song is the thing" Everything else takes a back seat.

Ah come on Bob...Guys like Jack Bruce, John Entwhistle, Felix Papalardi, Stanley Clark - what do they know?

Talbot

My band and I have been looking for a lead guitar player for months. I'm tired of the emails saying "I'll come jam with ya!" only to reply with dates and times (plural) and never hear back.

Come on people!

Lo, we are witness to the downfall of what it really means to be a musician. The advent of computerized/digital forms of making and manipulating music has given rise to the superproducer, and the death knell for actual songwriting. The 32-bar form is veritably extinct.

Those of us on the higher side of 40 can remember when it was not how you looked, but how you sounded. We know that a good song will stick in your head, and lend itself to rearrangement in different genres and styles. Most of what's on the charts today is sonic toilet paper; it will not withstand the tests of time. It is the older musicians who are perhaps in the best position to "save' or "revive" music from what it has become, but so few are genuinely willing to take up the sword of righteousness, and commit to the cause.

As long as the Rebecca Blacks of the world can pen simple pop confections, produce eye-catching videos, and command the attention of the arbiters of taste, music will not be the transcendent artistic and social force that it has been in the past. The younger generations have relegated music to structured cacophony, with jackhammer beats, screamo vocals, and no discernable melody...and the young bands proceed to bitch about a lack of exposure, audience and airplay.

Look back at history. Each decade had a defining band, or star, until rock/pop/R&B began recycling themselves:
50's Elvis
60's Beatles
70's Led Zeppelin (KISS could also make this argument)
80's U2 (as nominated by Rolling Stone)
90's ???
2000's ???

Yes, the internet has been a force of audience fragmentation, but it is also a conduit for audiences to coalesce around new artists.

50 is the new 30, and there is a sizeable over 40 demographic that is waiting to be captured by a band/artist that speaks to them. Let's not forget that the over-40's also have more disposable income to work with. Country music seems to understand this, very well. Look at the career arcs within that genre.

If you've done more living, then you should have something more to say in your songs. Get busy, and create! It's not so much "piss or get off the pot," as it is "piss, flush, and then drop a lit cherry bomb into that pot."

Those of us on the higher side of 40 can remember when it was not how you looked, but how you sounded. We know that a good song will stick in your head, and lend itself to rearrangement in different genres and styles. Most of what's on the charts today is sonic toilet paper; it will not withstand the tests of time. It is the older musicians who are perhaps in the best position to "save' or "revive" music from what it has become, but so few are genuinely willing to take up the sword of righteousness, and commit to the cause.

Bingo!

I am over 40, I have no grand delusions...To me its a labor of love and a compelling desire to pick up the pieces of blown-to -bits- song writing standards... The project I am working on, deliberately seeks to capture the methods of song-writing that was practiced before MTV destroyed everything...

It will never sell today, but My grand kids can use it someday as the root to sweeping the world with their compositions, should they decide on that path.

The biggest change Ive noticed is our crowd all gos home at midnight now LOL

I've noticed some of the same problems with people who are in a "band". Either there is no commitment and just doing it for the fun of it, or they aren't humble enough to notice that they aren't the next Van Halen. I've always said that anyone can play the guitar, but it takes years to be able to PLAY the guitar. Music is more than just three power chords each played as eighth notes in four four time (although that works in many situations). As a band, we try to stay humble and realize the limits of our abilities and where they stand at the moment. Yes, we have dreams and motivations, but we realize that they are not yet reality (I want to emphasize the word 'yet'). bands need to start low and work there way up. It's up to the audience to decide who makes it, so you better work your butts off.

Glad I don't have all those problems.
My bandmates are all committed ( some of the say I should be )

Perhaps it's not " musicians " in general as much is it is the musicians we choose surround ourselves with ?

Thru my years of doing this, Ive gotten pretty good at identifying the people that really want to play, and the ones that are just posers.

There are people out there, you just have to find them, and your not going to do that on here or web surfing, those people are out there in real life trying to play, if thats what you want then you just have to get off your ass and go where others really want it.

Good Luck

Yeah theres no real money in it, if you are active you do it because you love to play.