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#32312 by gtZip
Sun May 25, 2008 10:20 pm
philbymon wrote:
The emotional essence of the song becomes enhanced when you have instruments falling in, dropping out, changing tones & volumes, when the vocalist can go from loud & harsh to soft & back. Even if the song is screamingly angry, using control of the instruments & vocalists is a much better approach than all-out high-volume rage from start to end.

That's how I see it, anyway - having control over your musically expressed emotions. It's so much more expressive.


Yeah, Nirvana made a career out of that.
Almost to the point of overuse and cliche.

#32318 by Paleopete
Mon May 26, 2008 3:53 am
Dynamics...

Two words...

Jethro Tull.

#32329 by jw123
Mon May 26, 2008 2:00 pm
I want to add that if you are serious it might help to do some practice gigs.

My old band has gotten back together and has a huge sound system. The only problem was it was a bunch of mixed pieces. I helped the original band that was using the system do a couple of gigs last year and it took forever to set everything up and get it running. These guys had bad cords bad amps you name it all kinds of stuff that had acumulated over a 20 yr period in a band trailer. I asked the singer how often do you get the stuff out clean it and check everything out. He said when you quit the band, 10 yrs ago. They would just pull everything out of the trailer and pull their hair out for a couple of hours trying to make it work.

When we decided to start gigging again I had the singer bring the system in the trailer to my house and got it out in the garage. I got rid of all the bad cables and components. We found a box that holds all the amps we need, all the effects and a Mackie mini mixer. Its huge box but all we have to do is hook up the main speakers and monitors and run a snake to the stage area for the mics. The system is set up in the box at all times. So basically all that we have to do is reset the eqs for the room. We have done a couple of practice gigs where we set the system up, we can do this in less than an hr now, Im hoping to get it down to 30 minutes.

I thought I would add this to this thread cause its a real pain to get out to your big gig and you cant get the sound system going. So if you are going to supply the sound it might be good to practice your setup so it doesnt cause you a lot of grief when its time for your gig. I would say time yourself so when the time comes you know how much time to allow.

#32463 by philbymon
Tue May 27, 2008 2:41 pm
Pete said "Dynamics...

Two words...

Jethro Tull."

LOL...I love that band so much I named my son "Ian!"

JW...I know you don't ever want to listen to anything I say about music again...EVER...after my opinion on Page, but I need to respond to your last post...LMAO...

I FINALLY got the guys to separate all the bad cords & crap out of the sound system tangle of wires & mikes etc. We take them & fix them & put them in an "emergency box," for the occasion that a cord breaks or something. It doesn't take up too much room in the truck, & has come in handy more than once.

When we are working, I get together with one of the guys & wipe down all the equipment, check all the cords & mikes, try new settings & such like vocal effects, to see if they're better than what we usually use. I do this about once a month.

It's work. You need to approach it like it's work. Keep your tools in perfect working order & have backup stuff if something breaks down on stage. We have an old Peavey amp that we take, too, in case something breaks. It buzzes a bit, but is still serviceable in a pinch.

I'm a nazi about having a show go with as few glitches as possible. I'd take an extra everything if I could afford to. Nothing worse than showing up & setting up & having it all crash down around your ears before you even start. It's about the most emarassing thing that can happen to a band.

I won't tolerate a lack of proper prep in anyone I work with...EVER.

#32483 by jw123
Tue May 27, 2008 6:40 pm
Philby,

I dont guess it really matters to me whether you like Page or not. I havent really thought about it much.

We may not agree on Page but Im like you on the gig situation. Nothing pisses me off more than to roll into a gig with a group and have to go thru the sound system. A couple of weeks ago I did a little pickup gig with some guys I know. You know the type that Im just supposed to show up at 8:30 hook up my amp and guitar and play. One of the guys calls me at 6 and says what time can I get there to help. Being polite I say 7, he says see you there. I get there and I ask are all the cords working all right. He says yeah. We set up the board, effects out front for the soundman that isnt there to setup. Hook everything to the snake, and the first thing that happens is a couple of mic sends on the snake arent working so we shuffle everything around. Then the power amp sends arent working. In the end we wind up tearing everything back apart and putting it on the edge of the stage. I get everything that Im involved with done around 8:45, didnt even get a chance to eat before we play.

Thats what I was getting at above, practice your setup before the gig. Just tear everything down at your practice room and reset it up to see what kind of issues you might have. After you get a couple of gigs under your belt it will be routine.

Philby, I like Page a lot but I didnt name any of my kids Jimmy. I did have a friend from college whos last name was Gillen, he named his son Ian Hunter Gillen. He wasnt even a musician.
#32894 by Black57
Mon Jun 02, 2008 1:22 am
Bob Greaves wrote:Every musician seems to operate for a period of time on the assumption that getting better as a band is a simple matter of just getting better. More dedication and practice and it will get better if you have the skill. Then it begins to sink in that you cannot get better until you change some things.

For example, there comes a time when the loudness keeps you from being able to sing in tune because you cannot hear yourself, so you lower the stage volume at least enough to hear your vocals more accurately. In time it starts to actually sound better than it ever would had you not turned down the stage volume.

So, since I am putting together a few articles on this subject. Each of you can help me in my research by telling me how you make what the crowd hears at your performance something better from what they hear from typical bands. Why is it that those who hear your band can hear something fantastic because you changed the way you do things? What do you do that allows your band to have better timing, better intonation, and a better mix of parts?

I realize that what helps one band sound much better might not work for another band, so please no fights about what works better. Just tell me what works better for you.


One thing that band members must keep in mind is what is important for the music. You never play louder than your vocals or lead musician(s). The melody or lead must be heard.Keep in mind what causes music to speed up is the loudness and/or emotional state of the musicians. Nervousness, for example, contributes to a piece speeding up. In that case the band must rely on the drummer to control that...so he/she is not aloud to be nervous :wink: Work with a metronome in rehearsals...even if you are a rock band, you want to be solidly tight if you wanna kickass. Eye contact is essential, you cannot go into your own world. Of't times a soloist may close their eyes, it helps them to get into the "zone" so everyone must be aware of this...learn the style of the soloist and let them do their thing. After all of these things have been achieved, the most important thing is to have fun for God's sake!

#32897 by Paleopete
Mon Jun 02, 2008 3:41 am
I'd take an extra everything if I could afford to.


I've been saying that for years, think I've typed it here too. That's one of the reasons I run a dual amp rig too, one goes on the blink I can make it on the other without touching a thing, just remove the A/B switch. Sometimes I don't even do that, just don't step on it.

I always have extra cables, picks, strings, batteries, even a spare slide bar. Any flaky cables I find out soon after I join a band and they're working perfect as soon as the owners get them to me, and from then on they stay that way. I've soldered mic and guitar cables 15 minutes before a show more than once. Yes, I keep a soldering kit with me too. Extra extension cords, electrical tape, pliers, screwdrivers, crescent wrench, that kind of thing so most last minute gotchas can be dealt with.

I also like to do a practice gig as mentioned earlier, it's great when trying to put together a sound system from two or three peoples' stuff without putting yourself in a bind a half hour before a gig starts. I do that with my guitar rig too, except at low volume. If the amps work at 3 they'll work on 7 too. But amps and pedal board get a sound check at home a couple of days before a gig if it's been several months since all of it has been used. And I've still gotten caught onstage with a pedal suddenly going falky...a dirty jack or something can drop in and toast your cookies just about any time...

One nice thing though, since I started bringing multiple guitars and changing strings every 1 or 2 gigs, depending on whammy bar, I break strings very rarely and always have a standby tuned and ready to go. And can use different tunings a lot more easily.

#32916 by philbymon
Mon Jun 02, 2008 1:16 pm
One problem I've had in the past with certain drummers - they pay more attention to the guitarist than the bass player or the tempo. Worst thing they could do!

When the typical gutarist is playing up the neck, he speeds up slightly as he goes. When he plays down the neck, he often slows down.

Singers often rush or drag, depending on thier mood, excitement level, etc.

It's the bass/drummer combination that holds it all together. When one or the other is listening instead of concentrating on thier job, tempo goes out the window.

I've had many problems with this issue. It's way too easy to get caught up in the moment, to lose yourself in the sounds around you, esp when you're thinking how great it all is. It is tough to keep your mind on your job. Bassists & drummers must work together to keep the rest of the band from running amok, as it were.

When you find that good combination, it's pure gold. The guitarist will be forced to stay in time even if he drifts a bit once or twice, the singer can't rush things when he gets excited, & the band stays on track every time.

#32918 by Paleopete
Mon Jun 02, 2008 1:45 pm
I sat in with a band at rehearsal a few weeks ago, not too impressive, but had possibilities, with a little work. The one thing I couldn't deal with was the drummer...even when I tried to slow the guy down he still rushed really bad every song. And I've had a lot of experience making drummers keep the tempo, just look in his direction and slow down some, usually they get the hint.

But it's a nuisance...the drummer's #1 priority is to keep it steady and the right tempo, nothing else matters. Fancy fills are nice, but not at the expense of rushing/dragging. I'll take an average drummer who can keep steady time over a really good drummer who rushes and drags constantly every time. No contest...I played with a drum machine (keyboard actually) in two bands, 3 to 4 years each, I developed rerally good timing doing that. Playing with a live drummer again was really difficult at first, because the machine does not vary at all, humans do no matter how good they are. After 4 years with electronic drums, you notice every little variation in timing and it's not easy to keep up with humans any more...your timing is too good...

Oh and I found it interesting Tull impressed you that much, they've been one of my favorite bands since the day a friend brought Aqualung to the band room in high school and played it for us. I've been to 3 of their shows, always the best sound and showmanship. Ian Anderson is a great composer and always has a top notch band. When they get loud, it's LOUD, and when they get soft you can hear Ian breathe into the mic...not to mention all his great facial expressions and vocal noises that make him unique...

The one show in San Antonio Ian was in a wheelchair and I noticed he never moved his left leg at all. After the 3rd song he announced that he had fallen onstage in Lima, Peru 2 weeks earlier, busted his knee and was confined to the wheelchair for a while. They did their usual fantastic show, except that Anderson wasn't all over the place, (a wheelchair limits your mobility) did the usual instrument swap (Fat Man on that show) and played most of "Roots to Branches", their newest album. Lemme tell ya "Beside Myself" and "Dangerous Veils" and "Roots to Branches" live in an old opera house (the Majestic Theater) were probably some of the best I've ever heard anywhere...

#34259 by fretwork
Sat Jun 14, 2008 12:49 am
In the eternal quest to improve the sound of the band occasionally I check other bands, the most common problem that I’ve found is that most bands carry more wattage then needed, unless you play outdoors or in same large venue in an average club/Bar the amplification power should be kept at minimum. Most amplifiers have all kinds of effects like distortion, flange, reverb etc ,but in order to get the full benefit of these features you’ll have to crank up the volume when playing with a big rig if not the sound is going to be thin and hollow. It is a good idea to have dual rig, a small amplifier will sound better in a small venue because you can crank up the volume without being too loud and get the full benefit of the effects, the bass should have a monitor for his own amplifier along with the drummer, these two instruments if they can’t hear themselves will tend to play louder to compensate thus boosting the overall volume of the band. The placement of the equipment is critical and should conform to the room in which the band plays, if not even though the mix sounds OK through the monitors it may be a different story from the audience, some instrument will sound louder than some others.

For the PA system the method that we use is to first find what volume is sufficient for the room and mark it, after work on the tone knobs, with the volume already set turn the treble knob until it feeds back then back off a little to kill the feedback, repeat this for the middle and low ranges and mark’em, after you can set the highs, middle and lows ranges to suit your voice without exceeding the marks. After you’ve done all that have a sound check with somebody listen away from the stage for the final individual volume adjustment.

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