United States

Agree

I've been pondering this for a while, and some interesting points were made on both sides.

Any band has to fit a certain niche to get booked at bars/clubs/parties, but unfortunately there are several stereotypes associated with all-female bands (or even just female musicians in general) that can make it harder - like it or not, women get judged differently than men. To fellow musicians, it should primarily come down to if she can actually play, but to the viewing audience, it's: "Is she hot?" Looks don't matter as much in men (except during the hair metal/MTV era), but overall packaging is what is remembered. Women do not seem to be taken seriously as musicians in a lot of instances, and if they play an instrument as opposed to or as well as sing, they are met with a degree of incredulity. I do have several evidential anecdotes but won't bore you all with them.

Sex appeal does sell, and it is difficult to walk that edge between musical idealism (which IMHO should be striven for) and crass commercialism/pandering.

It shouldn't matter what you look like if you come across as professional - show up on time, play your heart out, get people moving. However, female bands could be dead on perfect sound-wise, but if they aren't at a certain level appearance-wise, they are less likely to be asked back. Sad but unfortunately true.

So that's essentially my 2 cents rattling around in the jar of the internet.

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I've been pondering this for a while, and some interesting points were made on both sides.

Any band has to fit a certain niche to get booked at bars/clubs/parties, but unfortunately there are several stereotypes associated with all-female bands (or even just female musicians in general) that can make it harder - like it or not, women get judged differently than men. To fellow musicians, it should primarily come down to if she can actually play, but to the viewing audience, it's: "Is she hot?" Looks don't matter as much in men (except during the hair metal/MTV era), but overall packaging is what is remembered. Women do not seem to be taken seriously as musicians in a lot of instances, and if they play an instrument as opposed to or as well as sing, they are met with a degree of incredulity. I do have several evidential anecdotes but won't bore you all with them.

Sex appeal does sell, and it is difficult to walk that edge between musical idealism (which IMHO should be striven for) and crass commercialism/pandering.

It shouldn't matter what you look like if you come across as professional - show up on time, play your heart out, get people moving. However, female bands could be dead on perfect sound-wise, but if they aren't at a certain level appearance-wise, they are less likely to be asked back. Sad but unfortunately true.

So that's essentially my 2 cents rattling around in the jar of the internet.

Reply---Thank goodness, a civil discussion, minus venomous attacks. Whew!!!. Well, forgive the repetitiveness but your points shall be capsulized with things mentioned prior:

1. For 35 years, www.countrysisters.eu have been taking American, old style, rock and roll and its offshoots and derivatives and making nice tuneage with it. Why have they endured?? Because of the expatriation factor, plus the opening of the EU as the open market, and they like it.

2. The current demographics that we appeal to: The baby boomer/retiree crowd, who grew up with the old style (illustrated in the video selections on our page)--and want to hear it again in a live, "new" format." What has spurred this is the hi-tech boxes in the venues: type in the group or the song, and if its in their que, you can play it. Now, we play those relics, but play them live.

3. We are the only group/troupe who can play in multiple venues at the SAME TIME. Don't know what evidential anecdotes you can point to there, but its always fun explaining that concept. That fine line/combo u mentioned of the sex/sex apppeal with the live tuneage is so important. For example, you have the "Wilbury Twist". So, it doesn't have a showcase for strings. Who cares??? If somebody plays any string or wind instruments, and can play the tune in question, we'll find a slot for them to show it off.

4. The naysayers here, and see right through it, are just insanely jealous because someone is making a concerted effort to trespass on their hallowed ground. The same animosity occurred when we started promoting girls wrestling back in the 70's. Well, now female and inter-gender is getting more popular than ever. Provided you combine that sex appeal with the actual ability to wrestle and sell the concept. Opinions, to us, are moot. Its the bottom line that draws our line in the sand.

5. The biggest conflict seems to be coming from the employer v. employee stances. We, as the management, know what type of music sells and what kinds of tuneage is to be played. Every musician, not management, is really sensitive about this "stifling of creativity." Simply put---We love your orginality and creativity---but its going to be done on your dime, not ours.

6. AS long as we are paying the freight (described in detail in one of the threads)--then we make the rules for the game. Time-consuming research, polls, and that strict demographic appeal, has yielded the consensus that they want to hear the type of music they grew up on. Period. This mosh and smash mouth and rap and hip hop etc etc etc, and their offshoots, have no place in this sandbox. Depressing C and W, twanging, unfamiliar songs, do not keep them dancing or drinking, and the club owner only cares about that. Toss in easy on the eyes and that combo concept, and you have a viable niche that those "still wanting to be young at heart crowd." wants to re-live.

7. Simple supply and demand. If said interested parties do not like to play this type of music, then they don't have to be part of the group. In this niche, idealogy has no place. One chief, the rest are Indians. Studio time and cd/dvd prep is not cheap. We will not waste those resources on some original tunes that nobody has ever heard, not yet anyway.

1puredemure, I am not denying you make valid points, especially from a business-sense. Please bear in mind that the option of going with a large packaging facility (for lack of better terminology at the moment, my apologies) is not available for those of us in B.F.E., where it is a struggle to find other female musicians (I am somewhat lucky living near a good-sized city with a halfway decent music scene, plus I don't care about the gender of with whom I play). The original topic was why it's hard to start an all-girl band.

Hard to find ANYONE at times who plays, let alone with any proficiency, plus culturally area may still be in mindset ranging from "A girl with a guitar? Aw, how cute. When are you gonna get married?" to "I don't care what she sounds like as long as she shakes it".

It's been mentioned that by looking to start an all-female band, you are effectively cutting your potential pool of audition-ees in half. Really even more than that, because the ratio of female musicians to male is not 1:1.

Then it's finding the variety of skills you need. You can't have a picnic if everyone brings potato salad. Also, there is the age issue. While I agree it should be about the music, there is often a generational disparity between what music the younger players like and the older players. Fortunately, these younger girls are mostly free from the oft-told "it's just not FEMININE to play guitar/bass/drums/bagpipes/whatever". So that does give me hope that we will be seeing more all-female groups that have it together. (That sentence in quotes should be said with a very nasal Brooklyn accent for best effect.)

Here is where it helps to have some idea of where you want to go musically to help fit into that niche you were talking about. It helps to have a plan - what music do you want to play? Where do you want to play? What do you want as a fan base? What can you offer that isn't already available in abundance? What is your backup plan? (yes, one of my degrees is in business management - does it show? LOL)

Once you bring it together, you need to find someplace that will let you play. More remote areas will have less options. Moving to a larger city brings its own stress while still looking for a place that will hire you that ISN'T a, um, less-savory establishment. Especially if you don't conform to whatever the local standard of beauty is.

I am always willing to have civil discussions

I may have wandered off topic a bit; I'm sorry. Sugar crash.....

1puredemure, I am not denying you make valid points, especially from a business-sense. Please bear in mind that the option of going with a large packaging facility (for lack of better terminology at the moment, my apologies) is not available for those of us in B.F.E., where it is a struggle to find other female musicians (I am somewhat lucky living near a good-sized city with a halfway decent music scene, plus I don't care about the gender of with whom I play). The original topic was why it's hard to start an all-girl band.

Hard to find ANYONE at times who plays, let alone with any proficiency, plus culturally area may still be in mindset ranging from "A girl with a guitar? Aw, how cute. When are you gonna get married?" to "I don't care what she sounds like as long as she shakes it".

It's been mentioned that by looking to start an all-female band, you are effectively cutting your potential pool of audition-ees in half. Really even more than that, because the ratio of female musicians to male is not 1:1.

Then it's finding the variety of skills you need. You can't have a picnic if everyone brings potato salad. Also, there is the age issue. While I agree it should be about the music, there is often a generational disparity between what music the younger players like and the older players. Fortunately, these younger girls are mostly free from the oft-told "it's just not FEMININE to play guitar/bass/drums/bagpipes/whatever". So that does give me hope that we will be seeing more all-female groups that have it together. (That sentence in quotes should be said with a very nasal Brooklyn accent for best effect.)

Here is where it helps to have some idea of where you want to go musically to help fit into that niche you were talking about. It helps to have a plan - what music do you want to play? Where do you want to play? What do you want as a fan base? What can you offer that isn't already available in abundance? What is your backup plan? (yes, one of my degrees is in business management - does it show? LOL)

Once you bring it together, you need to find someplace that will let you play. More remote areas will have less options. Moving to a larger city brings its own stress while still looking for a place that will hire you that ISN'T a, um, less-savory establishment. Especially if you don't conform to whatever the local standard of beauty is.

I am always willing to have civil discussions

I may have wandered off topic a bit; I'm sorry. Sugar crash.....

Reply----Right, correct, have all of that. You touched upon a saliant point---location, location, location. Well, fortune has smiled. Lucily, cities of at least a somewhat populous size, we are blest with, so finding at least enough talent is not that difficult, believe it or not, and today's economy has hobbyists picking up their instrument and setting down their beer blasters.

As you can see, by our next destination, the Florida area is rich. We're confident that gigs will be abundant, both musical and wrestling, because look at what we can draw from with the gop convention coming to town in late august. Talk about a social networking hangover.

You also were spot on with the younger girls that are hammering on the axe and running through harps. That age bracket, all around, the literal garage band crowd, is what will save the old style rock and roll. Anyway, the outlets for local responses are universal on the net.

Believe it or not, Craig's List, minus the junk, Back Page dot com and hitting the music departments of area colleges, something always turns up there. But I get it, i checked some of the towns and such, and yes, small areas thin the herd immensely. But, you go where you can.

lol You checked under every rock and all you got was "a random STD".

Such a bottom feeder..but it was fun laughing at you.

Maybe the local jail will belch out your next quintet.. Or AA, that's a good place for you to look.

Florida is certainly high class these days. lol At least it's warm..

lol You checked under every rock and all you got was "a random STD".

Such a bottom feeder..but it was fun laughing at you.

Maybe the local jail will belch out your next quintet.. Or AA, that's a good place for you to look.

Florida is certainly high class these days. lol At least it's warm..

Captn, I hear they have a bumper crop of STRAWBERRY'S this year burp' margaruita's!

2. The current demographics that we appeal to: The baby boomer/retiree crowd, who grew up with the old style (illustrated in the video selections on our page)--and want to hear it again in a live, "new" format." What has spurred this is the hi-tech boxes in the venues: type in the group or the song, and if its in their que, you can play it. Now, we play those relics, but play them live.

Dont take this the wrong way... You're selling what amounts to a Vegas act, to a segment of boomers, the same group who thought polyester and hula hoops were the best thing since string cheese in a can. Now I aint saying a Vegas act is a bad thing... Its entertainment and yeah, it makes money (of course its why we do anything) . But please understand,...Here... you are selling 'Nascar' to high-end automotive aficionados. We strive to hand craft our Roll-Royce s (Hence the 'art side" of music) , while you try to convince the markets that they need hot Sexy Chevy impalas instead (And I like Impalas...don't get me wrong) , You see the analogy. SO in a way, your case is moot to us just as ours is to you.

3. We are the only group/troupe who can play in multiple venues at the SAME TIME. Don't know what evidential anecdotes you can point to there, but its always fun explaining that concept. That fine line/combo u mentioned of the sex/sex apppeal with the live tuneage is so important. For example, you have the "Wilbury Twist". So, it doesn't have a showcase for strings. Who cares??? If somebody plays any string or wind instruments, and can play the tune in question, we'll find a slot for them to show it off.

No doubt the sweat you pour into it all... Its a Vegas Act... These things are expected.

4. The naysayers here, and see right through it, are just insanely jealous because someone is making a concerted effort to trespass on their hallowed ground. The same animosity occurred when we started promoting girls wrestling back in the 70's. Well, now female and inter-gender is getting more popular than ever. Provided you combine that sex appeal with the actual ability to wrestle and sell the concept. Opinions, to us, are moot. Its the bottom line that draws our line in the sand.

I'm just waiting for the circus midget to poke me with a cane and tell me "You'll do...Now, get to the back of the truck..." (AKA my big lucky break)

5. The biggest conflict seems to be coming from the employer v. employee stances. We, as the management, know what type of music sells and what kinds of tuneage is to be played. Every musician, not management, is really sensitive about this "stifling of creativity." Simply put---We love your orginality and creativity---but its going to be done on your dime, not ours.

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Fair enough... We call that showing up prepared, with our own tools and act... But, about that management thing... EVERYbody knows, that managers don't earn nearly what they get paid, while the money making acts slave away like Clydesdales and get paid little to nothing, (as they make those managers richer...) Sorry, you are never gonna win over the employee sympathy as long as you persist with the current "greed model"

6. AS long as we are paying the freight (described in detail in one of the threads)--then we make the rules for the game. Time-consuming research, polls, and that strict demographic appeal, has yielded the consensus that they want to hear the type of music they grew up on. Period. This mosh and smash mouth and rap and hip hop etc etc etc, and their offshoots, have no place in this sandbox. Depressing C and W, twanging, unfamiliar songs, do not keep them dancing or drinking, and the club owner only cares about that. Toss in easy on the eyes and that combo concept, and you have a viable niche that those "still wanting to be young at heart crowd." wants to re-live.

I am privy to some technical developers , who are working feverishly to build a viable hologram media device... Someday, in the not too distant future, You guys will be replaced. (Holographic technology can do everything you just described, at a fraction of the cost) Sorry, its reality, not yet arrived, but coming soon to a venue near you.

7. Simple supply and demand. If said interested parties do not like to play this type of music, then they don't have to be part of the group. In this niche, idealogy has no place. One chief, the rest are Indians. Studio time and cd/dvd prep is not cheap. We will not waste those resources on some original tunes that nobody has ever heard, not yet anyway.

In your pedigree of work, one would not expect you to focus on resources in that manner. The same could (and has been said) for Lawrence Welk (god rest his bubble-music coma generating band-leader's ass)

i think it's hard finding female musicians,I'm a female as well that sings,plays rhythm guitar and bass, but i think it has to do with the whole image of playing music as a woman.women were never really accepted into the rock music scene,there are still times when women are discriminated on unless they're a singer.playing rock is a very masculine idea to everyone and women are expected to be these submissive fragile creatures.I'm hoping that the whole thing changes but it's been that way since the 60s and you don't really hear much about women musicians now so I'm guessing it's still kinda like that

I think Chrissy Hyndes and Bonnie Raitt would disagree with you (but they may be the exceptions!)

FWIW, female musicians in rock are few and far between. The one's that make it do so not because they're female but because their chops are off the hook. Locally in Seattle we have a woman, Polly Keary, who fronts her own blues band playing kick ass bass and lead vocals. I think if you asked her what she thought of "all girl bands" she'd burn your ears off.