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Mr. Paperdog (I'm sorry, I don't know your name),

My oldest son is autistic and my youngest has issues as well, so I have been in many classrooms of children and have been around many children with different abilities. What I have learned and many have agreed is that all children are different. They cannot be defined, just as musicians and lyricists cannot be boxed by one definition of who they basically are.

My son LOVES my simple children's songs, you may find them dull, yet, many have told me they loved them, but my son also listens to Lady Gaga and Styx ! He even will sit with me and sing "Green Manalishi", there needs to be a variety of music for all children, just as there is a wide range of music for adults.

That is just my opinion.

Tammy

Here are my songs as a reference:

SPLASH! http://www.soundclick.com/bands/page_so ... D=11324004

Bubbles http://www.soundclick.com/bands/page_so ... D=11470564


PS: Mike, I love that episode of Two and a Half Men, one of my favorites!

One person stares at the Sistine Chapel, and marvels at the epic ceiling....of The hand of God touching the hand of Adam, and all the predicate packed into that opening of the clouds... Another person stares at the same work, and marvels at the awesome colors...and no more.

Long ago, I worked professionally with many children... (was quiet successful) There are some COMMON fundamentals regarding their development, which are indisputable. While its very attractive and tempting to assign "infinite variation" (all children are different) to the characteristics of a child's un-formed personality...during their formative years, experts will agree that they share more 'common' psychology than variation of it, including tastes (All That really comes much later).

There is a good reason why nature dictates that we cannot run until we first learn to walk, and we cannot walk until we have first crawled ...

Believe It when I say... No 'child' can discern the qualities of Lady Gaga music in anywhere close to the same context that adults do... (Any more than one of the aforementioned observers at the Sistine Chapel, was able to appreciate the essence of the work on the ceiling) .

Anyone who believes otherwise, probably needs to get educated on the issues. Mind you.. I don't feel its a sin for a child to listen to Lady Gaga...But they probably do so, merely because its 'there' to climb... much like the rock wall in the back yard and the blue bassinet in the room.. I do not believe that toddlers coherently form a complete taste and opinion for Lady Gaga (Outside of what the parents feed the child's head with).


As it stands, a lot of parents, impose their own vicariousness and fantasy onto the shoulders of their children, and they treat them as though they are tiny adults. I find it tragic and rather abusive by such parents. There is a litany of research out there...far too deep to go into it here.

My whole point is that Music for Children, most likely, if represented in earnest for the children, will not sound very interesting to most adults... I challenge any adult to embrace that theory and explore it... Get to know your children in depth. If yo want to reach them...Sing it on their terms...Not the terms you "think" they should be...

That's all I gotta say about that.

HI Tammy
You've got my respect for working with your kids the way you must. Haven't listened to your kid songs, but like the ones on your profile!

You're right about all kids being different - and their likes/appreciations of anything including music is completely influenced by the home environment they grow up in - if they are introduced to various types of music (or any other 'art') as they grow up they will understand and appreciate more than just he 'Sesame Street' stuff that kids get if parents dump them in front of the TV (as babysitter) all the time.

Mr. Paperdog (I'm sorry, I don't know your name),

My oldest son is autistic and my youngest has issues as well, so I have been in many classrooms of children and have been around many children with different abilities. What I have learned and many have agreed is that all children are different. They cannot be defined, just as musicians and lyricists cannot be boxed by one definition of who they basically are.

My son LOVES my simple children's songs, you may find them dull, yet, many have told me they loved them, but my son also listens to Lady Gaga and Styx ! He even will sit with me and sing "Green Manalishi", there needs to be a variety of music for all children, just as there is a wide range of music for adults.

That is just my opinion.

Tammy

Here are my songs as a reference:

SPLASH! http://www.soundclick.com/bands/page_so ... D=11324004

Bubbles http://www.soundclick.com/bands/page_so ... D=11470564


PS: Mike, I love that episode of Two and a Half Men, one of my favorites!

Mr. PaperDog,

I am not trying to argue with you because as a little girl, my mother played Doris Day, Carole King and Bread and I love them til this day and I mentally associate their music with fond memories spent with my mom. I do believe that what you say is true.

But I also believe that each person is attracted to something that appeals to them, even as a child. I assure you that I NEVER listened to a Lady Gaga song. I was flipping stations and my son begged me to stop, he loved the song playing, you could read it on his face. Sure, he doesn't understand the lyric, but the rhythm sold him, hook, line and sinker. Now, he's a fan, he discovered her and pledged his allegiance all on his own, and I am stuck listening to it seep out under the door..

Also, as my seven-year-old was dying at Boston Children's Hospital from Leukemia, the musician would make his rounds once a week. The most appropriate of Children's Music with instruments. My son couldn't stand it at all. He always begged the man to go, instead, he listened to instrumental music. He wanted the cd from a movie he had seen and on there was the instrumental music and he chose to listen to that, it meant something to him. He found it on his own, it wasn't what he wanted the cd for and it brought him calm and happiness until he died. I did nothing to influence him in any way, nor did the only music available in his environment, he lived for six months in a hospital with only that visiting musician, and he never grew to appreciate his music, only that of his own choosing.

Those are my personal experiences. I beg my kids to listen to songs I loved as a kid, I sing them, pull out the old vinyl, but in the end, they choose what appeals to them. I am sure our environment influences us most times, but I do believe that there sometimes are things that are special to us that move our souls, no matter what age we are.

Tammy

I always thought most "kids music" is kind of insulting to their intelligence. I mean toddlers are one thing but 4 5 6 year olds?

Music touches hearts and souls. Even young ones.
It doesn't have to be some lame goofy 1,4, 5 tune about how to tie your shoes. If my mom made me listen to that nonsense I probably would've grown up to hate music.

As a father of 4 I've tried to expose my kids to many styles of music. They'll decide what to keep and what to throw out.
Not surprising they're all somewhat Beatles fans and have an appreciation for Mozart!
My youngest (11) is really getting into Tori Amos's most recent recording. I think in part because Tori's daughter same age sings on the CD. She didn't listen to "KIDS MUSIC" when she was little.
Stifling.

Tams,

No Argumets intended on my part ..

I Think I may not be expressing my ideas very efficiently... By no means am I suggesting that children should be restricted to banal kiddie-melodies...and structures...

What I am trying to say... is that in a musical attempt to reach and move a child... the melody and structure (for that matter texture, and gesture) of a song need not be so advanced. There are tacit reasons that support this claim...

Allow me to illustrate:

In order for music to be effective for human listeners, its expression needs to be compatible with the human Brain. We know (through oceanographic studies) that Whales "sing" in the ocean and their tones are compatible with other whales. We humans can deduce aural beauty from the presence of those whales... But, lets bring in another term: 'music memory" , which is critical in the musical relationship between Brain and Ear . Its what allows us to decode and assemble a song in a way that makes sense to us. 'Memory' in this context is described In Laymens Terms here: ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Music-related_memory)

Can you remember the last whale song you heard and the impact that had on your life?

When a toddler hears a song... He/she does not have the full leverage of memory processing that an adult has. However, there will indeed be facets of the song, which stick with that child... The eerie and haunting minors, the happy and bright majors... Those, in and of themselves are received and are built upon as the child becomes exposed to more musical variation over time...and as that variation (Structure, Gesture, Timbre) makes more sense

Adults in an elevator are exposed to Muzak (That is that awful soupy porridge we call elevator music or department store ambient music)
The reason Adults are so offended at Muzak, is because that stuff is to the brain's processing of expression, what kindergarten level sentences are to advanced linguists. Its banal, boring, of no substantial value, and it grossly understates our own advanced, mental leverage musical stimulus.

With that out of the way... Incidental exposure to advanced music is not bad thing at all... But many Parents have somewhat mis-aligned their understanding of what works and doesnt work.

If you want to write a "poopy-pants" song... You could throw down a van Halen solo on it, but its full value (even if the child accepts and likes it, ) simply wont register completely on that child. I'm simply suggesting that if we understand a toddlers brain development, we might be more inclined to seek musical structure that is relevant and resonates more optimally with that child.

Finally if anyone does figure that out, imagine where they can take music for the adults...

I always thought most "kids music" is kind of insulting to their intelligence. I mean toddlers are one thing but 4 5 6 year olds?

Music touches hearts and souls. Even young ones.
It doesn't have to be some lame goofy 1,4, 5 tune about how to tie your shoes. If my mom made me listen to that nonsense I probably would've grown up to hate music.

As a father of 4 I've tried to expose my kids to many styles of music. They'll decide what to keep and what to throw out.
Not surprising they're all somewhat Beatles fans and have an appreciation for Mozart!
My youngest (11) is really getting into Tori Amos's most recent recording. I think in part because Tori's daughter same age sings on the CD. She didn't listen to "KIDS MUSIC" when she was little.
Stifling.

Is it insulting to their intelligence , or more to our intelligence... WHen people used to bash Barney the Purple Dino.. were the kids really that offended or was it the adults?

My four year old granddaughter and I sing quite a bit. It's occurred to me that our song, "If I had a hundred crayons..." could be a song for kids to sing or could be a kid's book.

Music is good with kids - although she doesn't care at all for the heavier stuff I play on guitar. But I can make her smile even when she is fussing by simply whispering, "Follow the yellow brick road!"

Talbot