Piano-Keyboards

I am a guitarist gone keys player.. I had no idea that the general theory makes it so easy. I did notice one thing I don't like though. The chord fingerings are not really all that and a can of beans.

For instance..I don't take issue with major chords predominately being a 1-3-5 setup, but when I track guitar chords over like Maj7, it sounds like crud.

Maj7 is supposed to be a simple 1-3-5-7 from the root. (stop me if i go too fast) That sounds like dung and definitely not like my major 7 chord on my guitar.

Others that I have to adapt to sound correct are; Maj9, madd9, m7 (that one really sux..1-b3-5-b7 does not cut the mustard to me, it sounds off.), dim or 1-b3-b5 sounds like bunkola, but I string it along via 1-b3-b5-"8" or octave, that just gives it some meat which it sorely needs.

I was so happy when I started to bang out these forms, but when you play them the grief starts coming back..

Dim7 or 1-b3-b5-bb7 I am still clawing at. I hate that chord, sounds wrong to me, period. I just go through and retry these until I get a fingering that actually sounds reasonable. (missing my guitar now) lol

Sus4 is another boner of a chord. Whoever came up with 1-4-5 should be whipped. The difference is easy to tell. Go play a Dsus4 on guitar and then a Dsus4 on keys. (blech)

Am I missing something? I mean, my theory is ok; not good, not great, but oddly functional. And then I see these little tidbits of poo, like spilled ink on my sheet music. I keep wracking my brain to attempt to figure out what is wrong and coming up empty.

So for the meantime, I just play this stuff out and take notes on what I am doing. Then everything sounds better or more correct, should I say but I am just at a loss as to how these chord formulas are useful if they aren't accurate.

I asked others if they think the adapted formulas that I use sound closer to the actually guitar chord and they indicate that's true, so what is it I am doing wrong?

There are a lot of better qualified people in here to advise but here's my thoughts.

Have you got the keyboard in tune??

I play guitar too, keys is more about inversions and voicing, knowing which sound good and which sound naff. Dsus4 is made for guitar to sound great, it works on a kbd too but just needs tweaking to suit the chords around it I think.

I think the keyboard sound can make a difference too. A brash "Jump" type sound might sound easier with 3 note chord with the usual 1-3-5 type intervals. Whereas a good quality piano sound can do the extended chord stuff better like the #9, b13 etc. but then the chords still need breaking up and things taking out. Voicing.

I think of a guitar like, all the technical musical theory has been done for you, for example, bash the 6 open strings and it sounds harmonious. Bash a handfull of keys on a keyboard and it's just a bunch of random tones.

Yeah ok but if you realize the keys to the kingdom are based on minor thirds, you can figure out just about anything in combination with the chord forms.

The problem seems to lie in the fact that on guitar my beloved m7 chords are usually 5 notes. On the lil bitch-ass keyboard, the m7 chord is only 4 and it sounds like mud. 1-b3-5-b7 doesn't cut it so I adjust it as best I can, but it's perplexing.

Even worse is the idea that I'll have to adapt every chord I play as that's how my ear works at this point. When it's right, I am good as gold. When it's short or lacking, I know it immediately and suffice to say, I don't like it at all.

As for my keys being in tune, I think you know better, jr.
I am playing a Kurzweil, not a Casio. For once, I can safely say that my keyboard is def not the issue.

If anything was out of tune, it'd be my guitar but due to the advent of the SNARK, I am rarely out of tune. (thank you Lester) You have to give credit where credit is due, regardless.

The dim chord has me crying in my beer. It's 4 notes on guitar, and yet on keys it's a dismal 1-b3-b5. What idiot thought that would be ok?

Sounds as fing bad as Maj7#11 (1-3-5-7-#11). (someone was reaaaallly drunk when they came up with that "deuce".. hahhahaaaaahaaa
Don't forget to wipe..

Having some success as I go through 1st, 2nd and 3rd inversions.

Trouble is my ear is doing all the work and I still have to take notes on everything now.

There has to be an easier way.

scott...this is what those in the show biz call a teaser. i've got something for you you're gonna like A LOT. but the spurs and heat are about to jump off so i'll get back atcha tomorrow (fri).

go spurs!

I jammed with these guys doing Grateful Dead tunes a day ago.

It was interesting because the harder I played, the weirder it got.
And they were digging it at the end for sure, but I didn't really get into it.

"They just weren't hard enough for me and all that GD music would have me looking to jump off a bridge, but I thanked them all and told them that I enjoyed playing with them thoroughly". (wince)(ecch)(wince)

WHERE'S MY TEASER?

I ONLY LOGGED IN 3X to post this. lol

Having some success as I go through 1st, 2nd and 3rd inversions.

Trouble is my ear is doing all the work and I still have to take notes on everything now.

There has to be an easier way.

ok...being able to see/hear inversions is great but it sounds like maybe you are voicing your chords in straight up "numerical order"...is that so????

by that i mean for a C7 you're playing voicings like C E G Bb or inversions like E G Bb C, G Bb C E, etc.

if you're doing that...stop. right now.

now here it is.....it's ok to think and visualize chords exactly like that....counting 'em up from the root (or 3rd, or whatever) ....that's how MOST people sort things.

so yeah, all chords can be thought and organized using 1 3 5 7.

but that AIN'T the way to be voicing chords on any keyboard instrument! (unless you want to sound like a twinkie.)

but hey.... your ears told ya "uh, uh, jack...these sounds ain't happening".

ok, first off there's no rule or law that says you have to play EVERY note found within a chord. often (usually?) voicings sound best LEAVING out one or more "chord tones". (like the root or 5th)


so are you hip to "guide tones"? they're the tones that DEFINE the chord "quality".....whether it's major, dominant 7th, or minor.

they're the THIRD and SEVENTH.

and they're the key to defining the "quality" of the chord. think about those three chord types as they relate to "C"

all three have a "C" (root) and "G". go ahead and play those two notes alone...it could be CM7, C7, or Cm. sooooooo. not enough info, right? so, you need the 3rd and 7th (guide tones) to define things.

point being...the root and fifth are kinda like filler and yes...they fatten things up, sure.....but, if you're playing with other instruments those notes are being being played by everyone else.

now, try just the opposite....and play just the guide tones. by now your ears are strongly hearing "C" chords....so just play an E and B. you'll still hear that as CM7 chord even tho the root and 5th ain't there.

next, play an E and Bb....bingo....C7 chord.

now, drop the E to Eb and keep the Bb note on top....clear as day...it's Cm7.



now here's the next bit....

the goal is to stop voicing chords "numerically" in pure ascending order.

instead...you want to keep the "guide tones" (3rd and 7th) in one hand and the root and 5th in the other

this will INSTANTLY hip up your chords and give them more breath and space.

"drop two" explained:

this is an easy way to organize that concept of keep the root/fifth in one hand and the "guide tones" in the other.

ok....take those 1 3 5 7 voicings and it's inversions and drop the second voice from the top.... for example C7 C E G Bb and drop the "G" to the bottom of the voicing.

it now becomes G C E Bb. voila! big open sounding chord.

1st inversion C7 E G Bb C...drop the 2nd voice from the top and you now have Bb E G C....another more open chord.

do this with ALL the inversions.

now, take a simple a nd common move....a IIm V7 I sequence in "C'.

Dm7 G7 CM7

if you voice it D F A C (Dm7) / G B D F (G7)/ C E G B (CM7) that's pretty weak.

now try it with the "drop two" method.

Dm7 = A D F C
G7= D G F B
CM7= G C E B

do this with all the inversions.


much hipper, right? and smoooooooth voice leading, no?

sometimes it sounds good to space out the notes in both hands, left hand=E and Bflat; right hand= D and G sometimes leave out the bass note,sometimes put the bass note in, this works even if a ninth isn't called for in whatever notation you are using at the moment. another one that works in any key is putting the seventh in the lowest note, left hand= Bflat, E, A; right hand= D, G, C. this should be played starting around middle C or it will sound mudlike if played too low. most pianos cannot handle these notes when played too low, unless you have a very good grand. I would guess you could come up with a million different combinations, these are just 2 that I use at times and they can be used in any key not just C

Oooh you were exactly right..this is LUSH.

Wow, I got the bug again..I'll talk more when I come back from the keyboard.

Oooh you were exactly right..this is LUSH.

Wow, I got the bug again..I'll talk more when I come back from the keyboard.

who's your buddy? now, make sure you use it for good instead of evil.

How I use it is exactly my issue du jour.. I'll use it anyway I can.

WOW, after careful study I have realized that those guide notes are a thing of BEAUTY. !!!

The "3rd and the 7th", yep. I got the fever for the flavor of a Pringle. lol

I also picked up a new sneaky lil trick as well.

I figure I am almost always playing the bass line or some derivation of it on my left hand, so I am trying dropping the root or 1 of some of the chords.

It's leaving me with a fairly generic 3-5-7 or b3-5-b7-"8"if I care to use the optional octave note, but it's working fairly well.

Still trial and error though, I can't help wondering if every composer writes in a similar fashion.

I jammed with another dead head band 2 days ago, but they want someone willing to study and reproduce the material note for note and I laughed at them.

NEXT BATTER.

Thanks Mark for the "drop the root note" thing.

The "guide notes" are particularly fun, as in they sound like PASSING TONES to me.
I end up making them (the 3rd +7th), kind of like how I would think about a note I liked to bend on the guitar.

I like to flat and sharp the guide tones within a larger chord and listen to the riff changes.
But I didn't get that part until today. Makes me wonder what else I can vary to have a substantial difference in the feel of the chord.

Oooh more rumbles in the universe or was that fireworks left over from last night? lol